New York, NY
April 14, 1998
Interview by Jim Donaldson
I guess I decided on architecture because I was one of those kids who played with Legos as a child. Really! I mean that’s what my parents brought home and as I grew up, it seemed like a natural decision that I would grow up to be an architect. I wasn’t quite sure what it was at the beginning, just that I enjoyed putting blocks together and building cities and houses. And with that thought in mind, I was originally born in Peru, but I did one year of high school in Southern Ontario. And at that time, it was sort of a natural progression that I would go to U of T. So I applied there, but after having spent part of a summer in Montreal in a French school, I immediately decided, sorry! Montreal was far better than Toronto. And I applied to McGill and got in. In those days, it was the five, actually, the six-year programme because you went to CEGEP with a few hundred engineers. So my first feeling in my first few days at McGill were, my first two years at McGill were of a memory of huge auditoriums with hundreds of engineers of which most were men and very few girls. We were all very quiet and it was all fairly impersonal and we all saw it as something you had to go through before the fun started. So after two years of this, we all wrote these special exams, and finally got into Architecture. We couldn’t wait. It was the summer. And I remember during that summer getting a letter from who was then the President of the AUS, who was Mike Furlong, who was a really remarkable guy, he is unfortunately no longer among us. He was a guy from Australia and his job was to welcome each one of us personally and very warmly and he wrote us like a two page letter to each of us who were coming into McGill that year. And just from the sound of that letter, it seemed like this was going to be a really great adventure. And then, of course, as I met him, I realized why he was having such a great time. He had come into Architecture as an older person and as he said, he couldn’t stop smiling because life was so great.
So the first day of school came and we showed up. And I think one of the biggest surprises was it’s a fairly small class coming from auditoriums full of engineers. We were only, I believe, forty, and a third of them were women. So that was surprise number one and it was, you know, a pleasant surprise. Also, there were a fair amount of people like me who were born in different countries. So there were people from Romania and from Uruguay and many other places. So that was sort of a nice- from Greece. And I remember the first meeting with Bruce Anderson as he sort of stood around and gave us all a long speech about what the design course would be like. And getting our places, our desks. We were going to have this whole environment to ourselves. It was no longer a classroom or an auditorium but we had a drafting table and a place to put up our drawings and just sort of staking out our areas. And divided into groups for the first project, and this I guess is one of the most memorable experiences, which was to go to an actual place and then reproduce it in a model. And this is something, which I know the students still do. And it was really, it was a lot of fun. It was putting together a programme, putting the model together and all of a sudden realizing that, you know, going to school was a lot of fun. Then you got together with people and you sort of brainstormed and did things and did things with your hands. So for somebody who had hated school for twelve or thirteen years, this was a total novelty in that, you know, you were together with friends. You know, we got to know these people. And I would say by about November, I sort of was hoping that this would never end. And it was so much fun. Of course, we all went to the- the Design course was the most important thing. And all these other assorted courses, we kind of, you know, tried to make due. Like we would go to Mechanics and all this, but the Design course was the big thing.
It was the fun, yeah.
Right, exactly. And we’d spend all our weekends there and our evenings and we’ d just hang out and listen to the radio. And maybe also what was very different, you kind of learned from each other, which was also a very different thing in my experience. And you would walk around somebody else’s desk and see what they were doing. And of course in those days, you know, we all smoked and drank a lot of coffee and I just remember just looking at what somebody else is doing and then sort of trying to incorporate some of those things in your own design and then just meandering around. And people would come and give you crits. And some of the people from the upper years, including Mike Furlong and all his buddies would come down and make comments, you know, about your own design. And I remember one of our first actual designs was a kitchen, which is sort of a monumental, colossal design problem for somebody who had never really, you know, looked at it from that point of view. And I remember somebody coming down from third year and looking at it and very contemptuously saying, “Oh my God, you are putting the sink in front of the window! How much more pedestrian and trite can you get?” You know, and I was so proud of my design. But, anyway, we made it through.
Who was your professor for the Design course? Was it Bruce that year?
It was Bruce.
Yes, it was Bruce that first year, so he was our first, our introduction. And the second term was Derek Drummond, who had Pieter Sijpkes as an assistant. And we did play structures, which I don’t know if they still do.
What exactly was that?
Just sort of designing a play structure that could be-
Oh, play structure, okay.
Exactly. So we had to design it and it was also doing a set of working drawings for it, which was our introduction to working drawings. And that, what was exciting about that, besides that, you know, Derek was sort of so cheerful and, you know, put everybody at ease, and what ended up happening was that a few of the people who did play structures got to build them at the end. And I remember, for example, Carson Lee, who was in our class, got to build his for the YMCA and Jack Huberman also got to build one and it was exciting at the end of the summer to see some of these actual projects, you know, become a reality. But putting together pieces of lumber and plywood that, once again, was sort of a total novelty for me. And you know, there were some people who were more technically oriented. Like for example, Ming Chen, who knew all about the sizes of bolts and washers and so on and so forth. And we’d sort of scurry around from one person to the other to get all these techniques. And I remember Carol Scheffer, who was the gold star student that term. And she had a double-slide play structure instead of that won out. So that was sort of a fun that –you know, sort of getting us more into the practical side of it. And then I remember that summer, also, some people did projects with Pieter Sijpkes called Opportunities for Youth and they sort of integrated some of the play structures and sort of building environments. And that was a fun thing too. And those of us who did not participate were still visiting that.
So I’m sorry I interrupted you, but I think you were just in your second term of the first year.
Yes, and finishing play structures. And I guess what comes to mind at that time is that the first year ended and we all started scurrying around to get summer jobs and just really started to get our hands into the profession. And I remember at the time during the first year, one of the student assistant teachers, I guess, I forget what the exact term was, was Bruce Allen. And this was the first year he had started doing this at McGill. And I got to know him. And at the time, he was working, he was a member of Arcop Associates, and at the time he was actually in charge of the Sankey Arcop office, which was putting up the Holiday Inn, what was to be the Holiday Inn on Dorchester. So I figured I’d go there and interview for a job. And I went to several places. And this was also a whole other experience in those days. I remember, the first job interview I had, I was offered eighty dollars a week, which I thought was pretty good. And then when I went to Sankey Arcop, Bruce had me interview with somebody else so it wouldn’t seem as if, you know, he was giving me an easy time. And they offered me actually a hundred dollars a week. And I was going to be model-making. So I took that job on. And, you know, I remember my first day at work, you know, sort of looked at what clothes I would wear, I sort of changed three times! And I arrived at work promptly, probably before the doors were opened at the office, which was then right across from the job site, which was going to be a whole experience. And showed up and of course, my main principal job there was going to be to do models in the basement. They had this wonderful epoxy orange floor in the basement and there I was given a whole station with, you know, Exacto knives and cardboard, and I proceeded to spend my summer building a quarter of an inch model of what was to be the Holiday Inn with a revolving restaurant at the time, which was great news at the time. Well, needless to say, I thought I could build models very well, but these guys would come down from the first floor and sort of make rude comments about my not very straight lines and fuzzy edges. And then, of course, I had all these Exacto knife cuts all over my fingers and I would bleed over the model. Anyway, it was a good thing I was in the basement! Then from time to time, they would do me do something else. For example, remember Letraset? Well, those were the days where we used to rub in Letraset and we had to make title blocks. Everything was Letraset, so one letter at a time. And of course, I couldn’t do that very straight. So I would sort of write Holiday Inn and then I would have to sort of peel it off fourteen times. It was very painful, painstaking, but it was kind of fun.
Also, I guess that the bonus from the job was to get to sit in at the crits. And the crits for them would be to have Ray Affleck come down from the main office and sit in and watch the designers, who were Bruce Allen and Nigel, describe, you know, what they were doing, and listen to Ray Affleck’s comments. So then, I would sort of sit in a corner and sort of listen to the voice of the master. And that was, you know, very interesting. At the time- and then Lloyd Sankey would come and review things as well. So that was to me, I thought it was, you know, in a privileged place. And then I learned all these sort of little technical tricks from people like Bruce Allen, who, when designing elevations said they made the size of the spandrel panels at a quarter inch exactly to fit the width of the felt-tipped pen. So that’s, you know, this is how you design. Sort of it had to be methodically nominally what your tools were. So that was sort of interesting to know in the future. And also the fact that you would work for days making this perfect bay window at a forty-five degree and then you made three of them and then Ray Affleck would come and look and say, “Why don’t we try sixty degrees instead?” And then of course, they would come and peel it all away and sort of “Carmen, you know, make us another six”. And that was sort of a little trying but we made it through the summer and, you know, it was a great experience. And I guess I feel in looking back that the experience at McGill and the experience at Arcop are to me very much entwined, they were really part of the same thing, part of the same learning.
Almost contiguous education right through the summer. I mean, the learning process continued.
Definitely. Right. Because not only because it was almost, you know, people like Bruce Allen and some of the other designers had been at McGill or would come as critics. And also there were McGill graduates so people were in upper years. So I would try to work there as much as possible. And from the job at Sankey Arcop right through my last year in McGill I would work there summers and even part time during the year. And of course, model-making was one of the things that you could do at any time. So I would sort of put in a day at McGill and then would show up at Arcop at sort of six o’clock at night and start building models. And, you know, they were doing all these wonderful buildings and really interesting things, major centrum, all these things all over the world. So that was interesting just sort of listening to them talk about things. And by this time, my model-making skills were a lot better, so they would actually call. And there was even one summer where I went to Ottawa in a sort of affiliate office they had there. And, you know, that was also an interesting thing. By that time I had graduated to drafting…
And so that was- a matter of fact, when I look back, I always thought I would eventually graduate and join the Arcop family and sort of stay there, you know, and sort of rise through the ranks. As life would have it, you know, things turned out very differently. After I graduated from McGill, which was 1977 from the Arch, there were not many- few jobs to be had. So I was lucky to get a job at Betts, Beaudoin, Cash in Westmount, and I worked there for a year at which time I decided it was a good time to do a European tour, like most of us did. So actually, Jack Huberman and I took off for six months and visited, you know, the usual, with our Nicholas Pevsner book, you know, with all the yellowed sections. And-
You didn’t have Bannister Fletcher at the time?
Yes, but that was a little too heavy to carry!
Yeah. We’ve skipped over a period I know we want to go back to it because we can edit this. But just without going into a lot of detail, talk about your other years at McGill and some of the other professors.
Because all of a sudden, by the tone of the tape, I don’t want it to end because you are now talking about after.
That’s true, that’s true. We’re all out there. Okay.
Just some of your other professors…
… and memories.
Yeah. I would say sort of going back to- and I guess I keep going back to first year because the memories are so strong from that year. The first class with Peter Collins was just extraordinary and in a way, so unlike what I thought would be a history class. See, I came into Architecture and I figured, number one, the History class would be- they would show you a Roman column and a capital and a Corinthian capital and you would go back to Egypt and tell you how the pyramids were. Well, this was not what P.C.’s class was about. And there were all these incredible- number one: he didn’t start at page one of the Pevsner book. He started somewhere towards the end, you know, in the seventeen hundreds, and, you know, we started talking about Hawksmoor and all these people I had never heard about in England. And it wasn’t too clear to me why we should be talking about them. And then how he would sit us in that, what was the A1 [sic. A9] auditorium, the little auditorium. And he would have us sit in order so that he would learn all our names.
Alphabetical order. And then he would call us by our full names, you know, with all of our middle names. So I would be Carmen Maria Tagle, and Alina would be Alina Alberta Senney. And, you know, he was very formal and he would always have the double slides. So all of this was very new to us. And trying to figure out what the concepts were, not just memorizing. So this was more difficult but it was also, you know, more interesting. And I mean I eventually did rather well in P.C.’s classes and I really liked him and I took all his subsequent courses. So he was definitely a memorable person.
A good memory, a positive memory.
And then of course, I remember meeting some friends from England. I believe they were some people who were coming to do a Graduate degree at McGill and they, for them, knowing that Peter Collins was on the premises, it was almost like, “You are so lucky. I can’t believe, you know, you get him in first year” . And so I started really realizing what it meant sort of a little after the time, but he was really quite interesting. And then on the other side of things, I remember people like Professor Selby, in the, you know, sort of our first really easy Physics course. It was called Mechanics and he was really quite something. He was really quite wonderful and it was sort of an easy course.
I think that the course was easy but he made it easy in a way because he realized that it was important, but not all that important, you know, in the total picture. But he was sort of a, how should I say, his manner was almost like a farmer. I mean I always found him that way anyhow.
But somehow, he got the message across. And most people say the same thing that you do. They have sort of a memory of him but it was sort of a nice memory.
Yes. And then, of course, he also taught Surveying, whether it was the following year or at the end of the first year. So, you know, we got to see him again. And of course Surveying was a whole other, you know- Surveying School. Well, whatever we did through the year, I don’t remember very much. But Surveying School I remember. It was either March or April. It was usually scheduled to the rainiest, muddiest season of the year. And then we used to trek all the way up to, I don’t know, the hill near the auditorium or something and there we had to drag the surveying equipment.
So you did it on the mountain probably.
Exactly. Right. So I remember I was lucky enough because my partner was Ming Chen, who was a very tall, strong guy, so he got to schlep the stuff and I got to take notes. But that was actually a lot of fun. And Professor Selby taught that as well. And I guess going back to it, it was sort of a nice bunch of courses in first year. That’s before it got really hard.
Professor Tondino, of course, who is just so wonderful. Every time I go back to Montreal, I go and see him. Because he actually did inspire a lot of us. And there’s some of us who have been sketching, you know, to this day. So from time to time, when I’ve come back, I’ve actually brought him some of my drawings, which he likes.
Well, as you know, ‘cause you’ve seen him recently, he’s still teaching.
And I have no idea how old he is. He must be in his seventies now.
And his son, one of the people that I interviewed in Toronto, he said Tondino’ s- Gerry’s son works at Stratford. He’s sort of the Artistic Director down there. He does a lot of the scenery and so forth. So I guess Gerry passed it on to his son, that sort of talent.
Oh, that’s wonderful! You know, we never really knew anything about his family or anything.
He’s part of the school but he isn’t part of the school. He turns up from time to time but it’s not as if he has an office there all the time and people run into him. So how about- Peter Collins, we’ve talked about, Maureen Anderson some people talk about because she was always there.
She was always there. And what’s so amazing is that, I know time is passing and we are all getting older and we see the changes in ourselves, but Maureen has not changed since day one. And it was wonderful to see her last year when I went back there. And once again, the great sense of continuity of the staff, which, you know, some people say, you know, may be good, may be bad. Maybe we’ re all too inbred. But, you know, Dave Covo, he was my second thesis assistant in fourth year. And I got to know him. He was probably three years ahead of me and then to, you know, to meet him then as a staff member was kind of exciting. I sort of really like, you know, going back home.
But anyway, going back to Gerry Tondino, another memory, of course, is Sketching School. And I guess what sticks out in my mind is mainly the fights between Stuart Wilson and Mr. Tondino because they would always disagree. Often, well, I guess I remember that, and, you know, I remember one time when I used to use coloured paper and do highlights in white and Stuart Wilson pointed to it and said, “This is really awful. This looks fluorescent! This does not exist!” And actually, Mr. Tondino kind of liked it and he started arguing with him and then they both sort of stood there and argued with each other for a good five or six minutes and then Professor Wilson walked out. And then everybody took a deep breath and you know, we sort of continued the crit. But Sketching School was really a lot of fun. We got to go to Halifax, Prince Edward Island the first year and the second year it was Toronto, which was sort of unusual. It was more of an urban setting, so we needed a lot of lampposts and then sort of mailboxes and curves and sort of- a very sort of hard Sketching School. But the first year was great. And once again, it was probably scheduled for the rainiest season in Prince Edward Island. So we all sort of piled in a van and got a tent and sort of froze to death for two weeks. But we did produce some work, which I actually do- some of which I do have hanging on my walls. You know, a lot of boats and such.
I’m trying to think, of all the years that you spent at McGill. Is there one particular course? If you had to sort of highlight one course or one particular professor that influenced you the most, would you be able to do that? And maybe there aren’t any. Maybe you just have all positive- you seem to have all positive memories of McGill. Either that or-
Yeah I would say, all the courses were so different, and it’s almost really- I see it looking back, I see it as a compilation of all of them. I mean I remember second year, which was with Professor McClusky, and actually Vikram was part of that too and we did what I think many of us were very anxious to- I was always very practically oriented. And I kept trying to sort of think of my learning as something where I would actually learn to draft and then sort of earn a living. So in a way, maybe in a shortsighted way, I was always very focused on learning some actual marketable skills. So second year was exciting because all of a sudden, we were doing real working drawings on houses. So it’s starting to look like well, you know, this is what architects really do. So that was, you know, fun in that sense.
And then third year, we went back, you know, we had this course with Derek where we got to design three totally different things. One was a gas station, one was a private house in Westmount. And that was sort of fun. That was almost he was trying to approach a real life experience, so to speak. So he got his sister-in-law, her name was Mrs. Adair. And they got- there was an empty lot somewhere in Westmount.
A very good-looking lady, if I remember.
Yeah, so she was the client.
Her name is Margot, Margot.
Okay. So she was the client and it was an actual site, and we were supposed to design this house for her. So that was- I remember that because…
That would be fun.
…that was sort of a fun thing to do. And then she would, you know, try to respond to. It was funny because she was trying to be nice to all of us. You know, even if you sort of totally missed the mark and didn’t give her enough closets or something. But she was trying to be very nice, and I think Derek was telling her, “That’s okay, you know you can tell them that stinks!” But that was a fun project. And then we also had to do a gas station, somewhere in a highway, maybe in the Laurentians. And you know that was sort of fun. That was a group project.
And so going back from sort of the working drawing thing to the third year, which was once again a lot of design. And then, of course, Rad Zuk’s systems. And it’s interesting because Rad Zuk came to New York about a year ago and we had lunch together. And we kind of just reminisced you know about the systems and all this and what it was really all about. And I think that was one of those courses where we actually did very well. I had a nice team. It was Julie Parker and Alan Lillakas. And what you had to do is design the building from nine different points of view. And what was interesting about it is that the project was the National Gallery in Ottawa, which was then in its planning stages. So what you had to do is take the programme and take the square footage for all of the different galleries, etc. and make little blocks and move them around. Well, for some reason, we cut our blocks as squares, so when we put them around, our building ended up being sort of our square cubes piled on top of another, which, you know, looked very nice, but it was sort of a direct result of how we had worked as a bubble diagram. So I remember that. But that course, I would say to this day sort of left us all a little puzzled. We were never quite sure-
Rad Zuk’s class.
Yes, exactly. It was almost like there was a mystery message somewhere in there and that eventually, you would sort of see the writing on the wall. So we all laboured away and we sort of divvied up the work. And I remember Alan Lillakas had this, you know, great glue gun, and it was really useful. But then sort of the course ended and, you know, we happened to do well, so we were all very happy. But to this day, I think there was sort of a mystery puzzle somewhere….
And you never got the message.
So I guess that gets us to our fourth year, and the thesis, picking a subject for a thesis. I think one of the most exciting things for me, I remember we had to do a board on what your idea for the thesis would be and sort of present it. And I remember really just looking forward to seeing what everybody would be doing and sort of the varied things. I remember that crit so well when everybody’s ideas were evaluated. And somebody was doing a zoo and somebody was doing a high-rise building and the variety was just incredible. And somebody was actually doing the National Gallery, which was exciting, which was Magda, and she did a really good job out of it. But I selected- I was at the time sharing an apartment with Sandra Donaldson and we were living in Lower Westmount on Olivier Street, which is right behind Greene. So what I selected as a thesis project was doing a multi-use complex in the corner of Sherbrooke and Greene Avenue, Greene Street. And that, and my advisors were, well, my thesis advisor was David Covo and, the name totally escapes me, and he was the landscape architect.
Oh, Norbert- not Norbert but John Schreiber.
John Schreiber! Sorry! How could I forget? So he and David sort of assisted me. And I actually didn’t know either one of them very well, but they were really quite wonderful. So, you know, I sort of worked with them. I know not everybody had a great experience with the thesis because it was sort of a difficult thing. But this worked out well and I actually had these notions to make, you know, Greene Avenue a pedestrian mall. And at the time, this was actually something that people were talking about. And sort of living in the neighbourhood sort of lent it sort of a special interest. At the time, I did think that I would stay in Montreal for the rest of my life. So that’s what the thesis was about and it was fun to have everybody working on something totally different because you could really, not really help each other out but give everybody different ideas since you weren’t even doing the same thing.
And you weren’t competing. If you were all doing one project, they would have been much more competitive and it wouldn’t have inspired teamwork.
Exactly. So that was sort of, I find, a sort of wind-down year. And I guess everybody was starting to think what we would do and everybody was also job-hunting towards the end of the year, which lent a little, you know, urgency to the issue. And then I remember finishing the year. And I guess, one other thing that I wanted to mention was, I guess, in terms of the students, I remember Andrea Wolfe very much, and I think she was the Gold Medal for my class, and Athena Kovatski and they were both from Uruguay and Greece. And they were really interesting people. I have kept in touch with Andrea, who is still in Montreal, and I know she is doing very well and she is actually in partnership with somebody else from my class, who is Magda Kuskowska. And I sort of remember them as interesting people in the class. Well, what happened after McGill was that I did get a job at Betts, Beaudoin and Cash, where I worked for them for a year. And I guess what’s memorable from that year is that’ s the year where the language laws were changing, and not only were we doing a set of drawings for the government in English and French, but also it was metric and imperial. So it sort of took a long time and the drawings were very tiny and the legends were very, very large. So that was sort of an interesting thing. We did working drawings for a swimming pool, but towards the end of that year, we knew there was really not very much work and it was a good time to go and travel. So we took a six-month trip, Jack Huberman and I went off to Europe for the grand tour with our, you know, Pevsner book and tried to see all these great buildings we had always heard about in P.C.’s lectures. And coming back from that, just one thing led to another. My mother had moved to United States and she suggested that I move here too. And I guess New York had always been a sort of a dream city. I think so, I’ve been here for, oh, I’d hate to say!
Twenty years, thank you! But to this day, I just think if you’re an architect, just walking down the streets, it’s just so exciting.
I guess it’s like Paris too. I mean-
Oh yeah! Oh yes, I know!
But New York is exciting, that’s right.
It is. There’re just so many great buildings. And sometimes we will do a project, for example, this office downtown that we have just finished and from the roof of it, you sort of discover all this incredible detail in old buildings and you actually can’t see from the street, you have to see it from somebody’s penthouse. And it’s just so exciting. But anyway, so we came here in ’78 and opened the paper and lo and behold, there were actually ads wanting architects! This is something I had never seen in my life. And I got a job at a midtown firm, which at the time was doing very ingenious work converting buildings, because around here, you know, the most that you do is really- you really convert and reuse, Stephen Jacobson Associates. And they were doing great work in terms of rehabbing old industrial buildings and converted, you know, the bakery and the printing house and parking garages into apartments. And you know, they were an award-winning firm and I think I learned a lot there. I was there for quite a few years. And then eventually became time to, you know, to get out on your own, and I started my own firm.
In 1986, and that’s already almost twelve years from now. And we’ve managed to survive through recessions and ups and downs. And we do, I guess we do some commercial work, we do some residential. As a matter of fact, I joke sometimes, because after having been at McGill for so many years, I actually sort of specialize in doing housing for the very rich from time to time. After all those years of, you know, listening to the Graduate students, you know, look for low-income housing and sort of sulfur blocks and all that. Well, after all those years, I do, you know, very expensive Park Avenue apartments!
The interesting thing, of course, is Bruce’s clients are very wealthy. And he does a lot of housing still, and when I say a lot, maybe two or three a year.
And they are all up in the Westmount area…
…or Stowe, Vermont. And they’re many million-dollar houses. And those are the only people, I guess, building houses. There are the odd one who has a small, modest- but he’s doing big homes. Big.
Unbelievable. And the detailing, if you ever go back to Montreal, you should get him to show you some of these houses.
He’s a classicist, you know. And I have a lot of admiration, but I wouldn’ t pick him if I were somebody who wasn’t an architect, to do my house, because he has a certain style and that’s it. You probably are a little, I assume, are a lot more contemporary.
Well, no. We do a lot of traditional. And really what you find here in the people who hire me on Park Avenue and Fifth Avenue, they all want sort of traditional, turn of the century. As a matter of fact, I’m looking at an apartment now where somebody did a contemporary job on this, you know, sort of pre-war building. And now, you know, we’re putting the mouldings back and then the baseboards and all that. But that’s really, you know, a lot of the work that we do. So it’s interesting, sort of looking back and, you know, how one thing ties into another. I wouldn’t say that’s sort of directly in terms of the type of work we did in Design and really what I do now, but I think in the way that we worked and just sort of also the notions of really working very hard, because we feel- I mean I spent those years working very hard there and sort of the joy of sitting down at the drafting table. And, you know, after these years of CAD, I still do design by hand, even though, you know, we use the computers. But that’s something that’s still very much sort of a direct translation. As a matter of fact, the Mayline I have is the same one I did my thesis on. It still has all the paint on it, I swear! You must never be able to- so I still sit at the same Mayline. You know, I no longer have a cigarette in my hand, but there’ s pretty much a direct line from really sort of getting right down to planning and changing designs to that. And although the projects are very different, and I never really-well, though we do do some shopping centres, etc. I never did do anything in the size of, you know, something like Arcop Associates would do, that I was really a little part of. But I would say it’s sort of- I do remember the design days and sort of sitting down and remembering McGill.